Creating Financial Intimacy in Your Relationships

Having Financial Conversations with Loved Ones

If you and your partner/spouse have difficulty talking about money, this episode is for you. Ed Coambs, CFP® and Certified Financial Therapist shares tips on ways to truly hear what your spouse is saying and find a way forward in financial conversations.

Key Topics:

• Common issues: judgment, criticism, and fear in money discussions

• Understanding your partner’s family background

• Review of the four attachment patterns: their characteristics and impacts

• Techniques for improving communication and connection

Join us to learn how to foster financial intimacy and strengthen your relationship through better financial conversations.

Links:

• Connect with Ed & take his attachment style quiz - www.healthyloveandmoney.com

• Buy Ed's book, "The Healthy Love & Money Way: How the Four Attachment Styles Impact Your Financial Well-Being" - https://amzn.to/4eYU9Wk

Time Stamps

00:14 Meet Ed Combs: Financial Therapist

01:17 Understanding Financial Intimacy

02:41 Challenges in Financial Conversations

04:41 Impact of Childhood Experiences on Financial Behavior

08:17 Navigating Financial Trust and Transparency

20:44 Attachment Styles and Financial Relationships

29:02 Practical Steps for Building Financial Intimacy

31:12 Resources for Financial Therapy

34:51 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

• Transcript

  Introduction to Me Financial Podcast

  Welcome to Me Financial, the podcast designed to inspire your financial life. Hello everyone. And welcome to the podcast today.

  
  Meet Ed Combs: Financial Therapist

  We are going to be talking about financial intimacy with couples, and we have Ed Combs here to talk about it. And he has. Multiple letters after his last name. I asked him, uh, what I should say with all of this.

  And he said, just say he has multiple graduate degrees and certifications. And you guys, it is a real alphabet soup. I don't think I've ever seen any with so many letters. So he is very, very qualified to talk about this. He is a firefighter turned financial planner turned marriage and family financial therapist.

  And he is an expert in helping couples develop financial intimacy with One of only 100 financial therapists in the U. S. And I am honored to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining me. Thanks, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here with you today. Yeah, I have been watching your content and I was, [00:01:00] as I was saying, I think it is just so authentic and real and it's just what you have to get to, I think with financial intimacy and I am honored that you're on the podcast.

  So thank you again for sharing your time and your knowledge with us. I'm thrilled to be here. Yeah.

  
  Understanding Financial Intimacy

  So let's get, go ahead and get started about like what financial intimacy is and why people have such a hard time with it. Oh my gosh. Well, you know, what's so funny is I was teaching a class right now with a bunch of financial advisors.

  And about the therapy stuff, and we were just doing a role play about, um, having couples talk about their investments. You could tell, like, even though this was just pretend, they were so in the role of being upset with each other about their investments that you could just feel the tension. And it was just like Oh my gosh, that's not financial intimacy.

  Yeah. It's like, so what is financial intimacy? It's the sense of open heartedness and relaxed and ease in [00:02:00] your body when you go to talk about money with your partner. And that may be about your spending. That might be about your investing. That could be about your taxes. That could be about your insurance.

  It could be about your estate planning. Yeah. It could be a. But you're not meeting it with like a huge, okay, we had to talk about this, like that kind of thing. Right. The heaviness that, you know, like is there for so many of us is not there when you really have financial intimacy, because the, the requirement, the requirement to experience financial intimacy is the sense of relational security and acceptance that you're really going to be safe no matter what happens in this conversation.

  
  Challenges in Financial Conversations

  And for most of us, we either consciously or unconsciously bring a lot of judgment. Both money. So even though we love our partners, all those layers of judgment and criticism and fear show up in the conversations. And so it creates performance anxiety. Okay, that's a great way to put [00:03:00] it. And I always say that you've got to be on the same team.

  And I guess you're kind of saying the same thing, you know, that it's 100 percent Yeah, that it's And that's the way I guess I've always looked at it is that we're on the same team. And so we were always trying to figure out our mutual goals and mutual everything. And, um, yeah, so I, I guess what, in what you're saying is a lot more about the feelings in the body and which I think is great.

  Cause I think that's where we need to go. Yeah. Well, because we all live in our bodies now, whether we're aware of what's going on in our bodies or not, that's a whole nother question, but what we're feeling in our body will drive our level of. Availability and openness to being in the conversation with our partner, you know, so we may want to an intellectually understand We should be safe.

  We should be talking lovingly with our partner But next thing, you know, we're coming out with criticisms or we're withdrawing or we're being passive aggressive And we're not moving forward and making important [00:04:00] financial decisions for our household. So we've got to start with that concept. Yes. And I love it.

  You know, being on the same team together, sometimes it's a little easier for people to connect with. I think intimacy has that next level of vulnerability and, and real connection relationship. And it's a, you know, being known.

  And so do you find that people have to work for a long period of time in order to get to that point that they are feeling relaxed with their partner? I guess it depends on the on the couple, but yes, yes, it does depend on the couple. And by and large, it does take a little bit of time to get there.

  
  Impact of Childhood Experiences on Financial Behavior

  Because for most people, what they haven't experienced or seen firsthand, Is loving, safe conversations around money. And so literally their brain and body doesn't know how to produce this experience. If you will, it's kind of like learning to kiss for the first time and it's just [00:05:00] awkward. If you don't have that example, it's like watching your parents.

  And if you don't have that example of healthy conversations and they always fought, then that is how you know how to talk to people. That's exactly right. And that's where we first learn about talking about money. So it's what we saw happening between our parents or mom and dad or dad and stepmom and you know, whoever those primary caregivers were, we saw conversations about money.

  We heard them, we felt them amongst the adults, but we also felt them directed at us as kids. So where we treat it with love and care and respect and empathy, or we criticize, judge, where we control what kind of experiences did you have when you were being raised around money. And is it specifically around money?

  I mean, I could, I could see it being around. Can I buy this toy or what? But does it sometimes translate to other things [00:06:00] in life? Absolutely. Like food or I don't even know what other example to pull food, sex, friends, media. I mean, it's, there's such a wide range of experiences that we go through that all hold into our sense of who we are in the world.

  And that's what we bring then into our relationship with money. So, you know, when I look at the research, uh, there's quite a few of us that experienced childhood trauma and childhood trauma has a profound impact on our sense of who we are in the world. Our thought patterns, our emotional responses, and our behaviors, all of that, and then comes into the way we show up with money.

  So yeah, we're not just talking about money experiences alone, but what we are doing is shedding light that money experiences specifically have. a profound impact on it because it's the closest one to one relationship. Okay. And it always fascinates me. [00:07:00] Like, why is that? You know, I, I, I'm always just like, how did we get here?

  You know, like, I know it has been hundreds and thousands of years and we've had money, you know, not necessarily the dollar, but you know, food and, and all of that. But it just seems like there's so many more important things. And then we're so focused on money, but we have to, because you're not going to have a house or food or, you know, a phone or some things to get around and, you know, and it's just this conundrum of, no, my family and my friends and my relationships are the most important.

  And then you bring in this money element. And so we're taught these conflicting messages, right? Yeah. And so I could imagine that that's also part of why we have such a hard time with financial intimacy is because of that, because we're like, no, no, no, we don't really need to talk about it maybe, or it's not [00:08:00] really important.

  Yes. Both of those things are major factors, right? Is, is money a good thing? Is it a bad thing when we frame it in this black and white binary? Well, if it's a bad thing, well, most of us don't want to be associated with bad things. So then we create distance. Right.

  
  Navigating Financial Trust and Transparency

  Or we learn that it's going to, it evokes jealousy or envy or greed or insecurity.

  And those are not pro relational, not go there. Yeah. You don't want to make anybody feel small. Right. I mean, most of us don't, there's a few out there that seem to get their rocks off a lot, but that's a whole different problem. Um, but right. What we do learn is that what we share about ourselves. has an impact on people's response, right?

  So if we say, Oh, I'm gonna, you know, I have young boys now, and they're like, Oh, well, we're going on this trip. Well, they're watching their friend's response to that trip. And, [00:09:00] and then, you know, their buddy's going off on a trip or get a new toy and they're having a response. So they're learning as they go, Oh, people have responses to what I'm doing.

  And You know, while going on a trip is not directly about money, it takes money to go on the trip. But people will assume things when you. People are assuming and filling in all kinds of things. So, and that's the thing is, as humans, we're always making meaning and sense of things. There's no avoiding that.

  And I think that's the hard part. That, that's part of what brings the complexity. And so how do you, do you give people tools to deal with that kind of stuff? Is that kind of what financial therapy is, is not only dealing with, with your stuff, but also learning how to deal with the reaction of others?

  Absolutely. That's a large part of it is learning how to Work with your own [00:10:00] reactions, work with other people's reactions. What do you do, you know, and especially in the context of working with couples is, you know, well, I normally shut down and withdraw when my partner does this. Okay. Well, is that helping you?

  Probably not. So then how do we get into a productive conversation about talking through spending, let's say. So recently I was working with a couple where the wife, you know, And not to be overly gender stereotypical, but, you know, she was the, um, responsible for buying all the household goods for the kids, right?

  Okay, well, that's fine. No argument with that. Great. But the level of anxiety and the, the missing and her husband is trying to say, well, Hey, you know, we need to talk about this. Well, don't, you can't tell me what to do. This is my job. Defensive guardedness. Has he been critical of how much she spent? Oh yeah.

  That too. Right? So there's a history. There's a history. There's always a history, [00:11:00] right? But part of his concern that she's not seeing is he's thinking about their retirement and not working in 20 years. But at the pace that they're going, it's never going to happen. And this is not a family where there's not enough income coming through.

  So they're really stuck in trying to figure out what to do. You know, like, how do we balance this meeting the kids, the needs of today with the kids? And it's more than just saying, well, get on a budget. I mean, being on a budget and understanding the clarity of how much money is flowing through is a part of it, but it's being coordinated.

  And there's also relational trust issues there. Will you be there for me in the future? Right. And will you be, are we on the same page about our goals? Are we on the same page just about, yeah, about balancing what is for today and what's for tomorrow. And, um, yeah, I could see it. Cause if you're not on the same page, I mean, it's just, you're living separate lifestyles while in one [00:12:00] bank account.

  Yes, and that's why sometimes they go on and create separate bank accounts, thinking that will solve the problem. And yet it usually drives a further wedge. Yeah, that was one of my questions for you is what, what is your opinion about separate bank accounts? Does it work sometimes? Uh, yeah, you know, I don't think, I'm not a fan of hard and fast absolute rules, um, but in general, I think that the separate bank account thing doesn't work out in the long run.

  Um, it's, it creates a lot of issues around financial transparency. And so my big question for couples is, how do you deal with that? Why do you need separate bank accounts? Is there a, usually there's a fundamental trust issue. So if we can solve for the trust issue and build trust, does that change the need for it?

  Um, at the same token, I'm a pragmatist and realize like some partners are pretty irresponsible with money. [00:13:00] And there's a need to create some sense of separation and safety. And so I don't, yeah, I don't want anybody listening and being like, okay, well I guess I've got to just force it all together. No, please don't just force it all together.

  There's usually some changes that need to happen before. Yeah, I'm sure there's some steps, yeah, that need to happen beforehand. Yeah. And so if you're just getting married, so let's pretend people are engaged and they're coming to you and saying, I, they have ideals, right? And one wants to jump in the same, I call it jumping in bed together, jump in the same bank account.

  And then the other one is very adamant about wanting separate bank accounts. So are there, there's obviously then steps that they could get to, to then merge. Because that was a real surprise to me when I got married was, Oh, we're not only merging the house and like kids, but we're merging like our finances.

  And that was a whole nother [00:14:00] like spiritual, emotional blending for sure. I mean, absolutely. Yeah. Right. And that we're together in this, you know, and together in our goals. And that was just a huge realization for me. And just, I would imagine that some people get engaged and they're not even thinking that way.

  Yeah, I don't know what the percentages are, but the number of couples that are surprised about that process of joining their financial life together is high. Really? Like anecdotally, you know, when I talk to people, they don't have proactive conversations about their expectations, about how are they going to manage the money and blend it together.

  But inevitably there's going to be some different ideas about how to do that. And where I like to go first with couples is backwards. What did you see in your family? Why was it structured that way? Does that still make sense now in the context [00:15:00] of the relationship that you're in? But, you know, a number of people have gone through.

  family environments where it was contentious and money was taken or treated in very inappropriate ways. And so there's a natural kind of self protectiveness that comes with them around sharing their financial life and blending feels very dangerous or threatening. And so we want to respect that, just like if we're getting to know our partner and we're trying to be sexually intimate with them, but we don't know that they had an experience of sexual abuse in their past, well, that's going to color their ability to be open and comfortable and intimate sexually.

  The same is true with our finances. It's the same thing. It's that amount of intimacy. Absolutely. And isn't it interesting that money is that intimate? Like people, and that's, I've heard that saying before is that people are more willing to jump in bed together and be sexually intimate than they are to be financially intimate.

  100 percent because, you know, [00:16:00] risking sound a little crude, even bad sex is good, right? Like if you have an orgasm, okay. I had an orgasm. Maybe it wasn't the most intimate mind blowing experience, but, but if we share. Bad sex was good. Okay. But then when you share money, that could be devastating. Okay. Like you don't even get an orgasm at the end of sharing money.

  So it's not a perfect analogy. And I certainly don't want to, um, overgeneralize this, right? It is. No, I think that's a great analogy, but we, but I think if we go to the other side is when we're having great sex, it's so connecting. It's so meaningful. It's so pleasurable. What would it be like to have a financial orgasm with your partner?

  What's the equivalent of that? Wow. I don't know. That's quite a question. It is quite a question. And I, you know, I don't know that I have had, have fully had that experience or like, but it's [00:17:00] provocative intentionally because it's like, what would it be like for us to really come together in this? You great trip of a lifetime where we both have saved and we both meaningfully feel connected to it.

  And we both get through the trip. We're like, wow, that was an incredible trip. And I'm so glad we just spent 20, 000 doing it or, you know, whatever the number doesn't matter. It's that sense of joint meaning and purpose that we use our resources to create this experience. It's going back to the newlyweds.

  That's when you first really start learning about how you're going to manage money. How much money are you going to spend on this wedding? What's the value of spending money on this wedding? Yeah, are we going to argue about how much we're going to spend on the wedding? And, oh, by the way, let's add in parental expectations of what you're doing or not doing and how much support is going on.

  So we really are learning about our partners, almost, I say we're learning about our partner's financial life from the moment that we meet them. Oh, absolutely. Right. Going out to eat or [00:18:00] where they take us on the first date, the drink they have. Absolutely. It's true. They talk openly about it. How do we split the bill?

  What does that mean or represent? Gosh, this is so interesting because I'm very lucky in that, you know, my husband and I, we don't have arguments about money. And, uh, you know, I don't know. It's just not, it's just not, I feel so lucky because then I interviewed these people on here, like you, and there's like, all these people have all these issues and it's the number one reason that people get divorced.

  And, you know, so it's, uh, it's very interesting to me, but maybe it's because I talk about money all the time. And so I'm not worried about, like, I talk about my money with everybody. And so I've never understood why people get. so closeted about their money. Um, cause it just is what it is to me, but you know, I'm sure I feel differently about other things that other people are really open [00:19:00] about.

  And, um, do you think it's always been that way for you or is that something that's developed over time and with maturity and experience? It's kind of developed over time, but I think it's once I realized that we were pooling and, you know, wow, this is, We're together in this and then having that conversation with him.

  I mean, he was a little bit more, uh, you know, maybe hiding some things here and there or what, you know, not, I wouldn't say hiding. I should say, um, just not jumping on board as fast as I did just because he didn't see my vision, you know what I mean? And so it was more of the sharing the vision. Uh, but I often say that like, if he was hiding something from me, I would feel like he was cheating on me.

  Yes, we like to call that financial infidelity. Okay, absolutely. Well, that's how I feel if that was something were to happen. I mean, because I'm like, don't pay for that ship or, you know, because to me, that's cheating on me. Right. [00:20:00] Well, because if you see money as a shared resource and it's works have this expectation of full transparency, but then you're doing something separate, then we've violated our shared rule or value of being financially transparent about what's going on.

  Right. But we hide. things out of the fear of being criticized, judged, rejected, or shamed. And that may be because of the partner we're currently with, or that may be because of past experiences that we've had, or the combination of the two. So even if you're a loving, safe, open person, and it's cool to talk money with, that doesn't mean that he can transfer that fully onto you.

  It's going to have to be earned. Yeah. It's a process for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

  
  Attachment Styles and Financial Relationships

  And so, and you often talk about, um, attachments into people's different attachments. Can we kind of go into that too? Yeah, absolutely. So that's, um, you know, a field of psychological science and research that's been around for 80 plus [00:21:00] years.

  And really what it's looking at is how do we form relational bonds with our primary caregivers? So mothers, fathers, when they're caring for the babies, what's happening for the baby's development and sense of who they are in the world and what are relationships like? And what the research has led us to understand is that people end up falling into one of four kind of relationship categories.

  One is secure, one is anxious, one is avoidant, and the other is what's called disorganized or fearful. So what does that mean? So if you have a secure attachment and about 50 to 60 percent of the population fall in this broad category, Oh, that's good. I mean, I would imagine that secure is a good one.

  Secure. Well, you know, we like to classify as good or bad, but there, it is probably the most preferred, right? It's the most relationally comfortable inferred in the same secure. I guess I just put it as there's not as much trauma to heal. [00:22:00] Ding, ding, ding, ding. Yeah, because we all know that trauma takes a long time to heal.

  Trauma does take a long time to heal and it, it impacts our relation relational attachment patterns. So if you have trauma in your history, You're more likely to have either anxious or avoidant attachment patterns, right? Which are basically saying that relationships are not safe or predictable, and I've got to do one of two things.

  I need to either be overly invested in the relationship, the anxious side, and try to make sure everything is working all the time, and I'm minimizing my own needs. So I'm pretty occupied with what's happening in relationships. I'm always worried whether I'm safe or I'm accepted and I'm working really hard to try to make things go well.

  I view other people typically more positively than myself and it's exhausting. I would imagine. So on the other side is that avoidant dismissing side, which is like, I don't really trust anybody to understand my needs. I'm going to do me. You [00:23:00] can't possibly understand what I need. So I'm going to just, reject you.

  And anytime you make bids for connection or being close, I'm going to kind of create some distance. And how often and how intent that is varies depending on severity, right? But they have a more positive view of themselves. So I mentioned this, uh, other category, which is disorganized, fearful. They move back and forth between the anxious and the avoidant patterns.

  So it's a real kind of push pull come close. Once you come close, Go away, back off. Wait, why are you pulling away? Come close to me. You're coming close to me. Wait, back off. It's, it's too hot or too cold. It's never just right. Um, whereas those with the scares, like they really know how to manage closeness and separateness and they tolerate and expect closeness and separateness.

  Um, so that those. When I, when I think about my clients through the lens of attachment, it helps me better understand why are they struggling to get [00:24:00] an act. And so if they have these attachments and they are together, right? Cause I would, the anxious is often with the avoidant, right? Yep. And if they have those, there's tools that, or is it mostly like you just need to understand each other and have empathy for where they're coming from?

  Oh, no, there's lots of different exercises that can be done to try to build towards secure relating or secure attachment, right? So this has been a little bit in the weeds, but secure. Secure. Relating is just learning the patterns of like, what does it look like to relate securely? Maybe I still am more avoidant, but I've learned like, Oh, I do need to be curious.

  Michelle, how are you doing today? Oh, I see you need to blow your nose. What's happening? Or, you know, it's like, but it's like, I still really don't want to be that close to Michelle. It's just, I've just learned to, that I need to be engaged. [00:25:00] Right. Versus really like your whole relational map, what in technical words, what we call is the internal working model.

  It's a relationship map in your brain about what relationships are like. Trying to get that to evolve, that's really challenging, right? How you see and experience relations, because it's held at a mostly unconscious and automatic level. Yeah, it is. Right? Because our relationship map is built in those first months and years of our life.

  Yeah. It's pre verbal. And so we don't change those parts of our brain very easily, which is why the first couple of years of life are so important. Exactly. And even the inner uterine environment when the mother is carrying the child, very important because there's all kinds of neurochemicals and hormones that are being released.

  And so the mother's sense of wanting or not wanting the child can even be transmitted while the baby is being carried. [00:26:00] So this can feel really scary and overwhelming for people to hear and, um, understandably, and the hopeful side is there's, uh, a phrase that's used is called earned secure attachment, where when you have new relational experiences of being met, being seen with empathy, eye gaze, eye connection is a big part of that.

  It goes into that sense of, I am loved, I am safe. And we wash, rinse, and repeat that often. Okay, and that works even with adults because I know it works with kids and that you're staring at them and you know, you hear that a lot with babies, but you're saying that even as an adult that it's important to create eye contact.

  Yes, eye contact is a primary means of attachment and bonding from infancy through adulthood. Eye contact can also mean threat. too. So that's why, like, what's the [00:27:00] presence in the eyes, right? Like as where people can't see us, but we're in video, like you're looking into the camera. I can see your eyes looking at me.

  It's like, Oh, this feels pretty comfortable. It feels like Michelle is really engaged with me. I feel comfortable. So that having that experience with your intimate partner over and over again is very important. So one of many exercises is I'll have couples turn and look at each other and actually make eye contact before they start talking because if they make eye contact with each other, it automatically shifts the tone of the conversation.

  I would bet. Yeah, I bet it softens it a lot. Big time. So imagine now coming back around to financial intimacy. Before you start talking about your budget or your spending, before you talk about saving for the kids college, before you talk about how much money you're gonna spend on the trip for the vacation, what if you just took 10 seconds to slow down and say, let's get [00:28:00] connected with each other first.

  Let's have some eye contact. Yeah, I would think that would just. help leaps and bounds. Yes, especially for the secure anxiously attached person for the avoidant dismissing that's going to be more threatening because they're not wanting to connect. Right. They're abused, used to not wanting to connect. And what we want to remember is these attachment patterns were not chosen so much as they were developed automatically.

  How does anxious develop? Is it that they weren't paid attention to, but they reacted and being coming anxious? Because I see the avoidant in that, you know, oh, you were ignored. And so I can't count on anyone. Yeah. So I think it's it's right. You can have the same type of parenting experience and you can go either way on the attachment.

  Interesting. Yeah. Just depending on the the child, depending on the child. OK. [00:29:00] Interesting. Wow.

  
  Practical Steps for Building Financial Intimacy

  And so I think even cause I know that we can't dissect this down into a lot of things that people can, you know, over a podcast, but if one thing that people could take away for creating financial intimacy, it sounds like they could just before they even start a conversation, look in each other's eyes.

  Yeah, they could practice and I would offer play with, right? And, and recognize that you, okay, you listen to this podcast and you go, Hey honey, guess what? I just heard on this podcast about this thing, financial intimacy, and we're supposed to look in each other's eyes. That could go really well. That might go kind of sideways depending on where your relationship is.

  Because it could be threatening or something. Right. And it could be feel really off the wall and depending on where you're at in your relationship health, you know, let's be mindful about that as an exercise. So if you're in a reasonably loving, stable relationship, by all [00:30:00] means, have at it. If you're in deep resentment and anger, probably not the place I would start.

  Okay. All right. I might just start with, Hey, can we listen to this podcast episode about financial intimacy together? So doing something together, but not necessarily talking, right? Okay. Yeah. Or let's read the same book. Yeah, let's read the same book. Um, can be another one. Sometimes it's really hard to get a partner to listen to a book or read a book.

  And that's why I like podcasts seem to be an easier slide than a book. Um, so yeah, I mean, listening to podcasts is a way to start gathering what we would say is top down information. Understand about how it can or should be, and then moving into more of the experiential practicing and doing. Right, because knowing about attachment styles does not make you secure.

  No. It just means you know, like, this is where I sit, [00:31:00] this is where I sit. Possibly my partner sits and this is where we need to go, but you actually got to do right. Does your book cover what some steps to take with each attachment style? Yes. Okay.

  
  Resources for Financial Therapy

  So there are exercises in my book, the healthy love and money way, um, that people can grab a copy of and there's reflective exercises at the end of every chapter, as well as some of those kinds of practical exercises.

  Okay. And that's the name of your podcast too, right? Healthy Love and Money. Yeah, the Healthy Love and Money podcast. Okay. Yeah. Just making sure. You know, everybody, I will link all of that. I'll have a link to his book and to his podcast in the show notes. So, just so you know. If you don't mind, I'll put a little shout out.

  I also have a course, so if you want more exercises. I created a course called the couple's guide to financial intimacy. Wonderful. So you can access that, uh, through my website and it has 10 modules with, you know, very short lessons, five, five [00:32:00] lessons in each module, plus or minus, and each lesson will take five, 10 minutes.

  You can just baby step your way through that and, um, continue to understand the range of financial intimacy. So is it, is the online course, is it mostly, um, like filling out forms and stuff or are there some videos or? Yeah, there's a lot of prerecorded lessons and videos and then, uh, with exercises that you can do with your partner.

  Wonderful. Okay. Well, it sounds like there's a lot of resources and of course they can call you and do some financial therapy. Yes. Yes. Also through the website, um, they can do the, get the financial therapy, embed it with my financial planning process. And so what I know, you know, you're a financial planner as well, right?

  When we're taking people through the financial planning process. They have all kinds of relational reactions and psychological reactions. And so, you know, if you need that deep level of support around what's happening with me and how do I work with that, that's where the financial therapy [00:33:00] really comes into play.

  Yeah. Well, and I've learned a lot from following you and, uh, because you post videos about even your kids, things that you're dealing with, you know, it's, It's um, really a story of, again, just being so vulnerable, I think, online about like what, just the things that you're going through and even your family as in the way to talk.

  And I think that's what's so important. I've learned throughout the years is just how to talk to people and how to be empathetic and meet them where they are. And I, I just view it as like you'd be on the same plane rather than being above or below them. You are like on the same plane and you're just meeting them exactly where they are to start with.

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're, we're all humans at the end of the day, right? We're all worthy from my perspective and we all have a complex history and relationship with money. We may have some areas where we're more effective. Then others, but we also [00:34:00] have our own blind spots that, you know, we need to continue to work on.

  And so, I mean, this, this work is a journey of necessity for me, right? Yes. I didn't want to see or experience some of the same things that I saw in my family or that I saw in my wife's family once I got to know them. And so it has been this kind of good on, on, Continuous questioning. How do I do this better?

  How do I do this better? And even when we're trying to do it better, we still make mistakes and mess things up and that's okay. Yeah. Cause life changes and you know, you grow and your kids grow older and there's just different situations to deal with. So that makes sense. Or you're like an awkward five year old trying to learn to do T ball.

  And it's like, I see the big kids swinging the bat. I'm surely doing it the right way. And it's like, swing and a miss, swing and a miss, swing and a miss. And then finally you hit the ball and you're like, Oh, that's what it's supposed to feel like. Right. Yeah. And then all the hard work pays off. Yeah.

  
  Conclusion and Final Thoughts

  Well, Ed, thank you so much for being on.

  I really appreciate it. Absolutely. Michelle, I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you. Yeah. This has been a very [00:35:00] eyeopening. And as I said, everybody, um, I'm going to link Ed's book and podcast and website and everything in the show notes. So if you want to, Uh, explore any of his options, then you will know how to contact him or let us know if you have any questions.

  Uh, and again, thanks for being on and thanks for listening, everybody.

Disclaimer: The information provided in this podcast is for general informational purposes only and should not be construed as professional financial advice. Always consult with a qualified financial advisor or professional before making any financial decisions. The hosts and guests of this podcast are not responsible for any actions taken based on the information presented.