Tricks & Tips to Maximize Your Social Security

How Can You Maximize Your Social Security Benefits?

Are you wondering when to take Social Security and how to maximize your benefits? In this episode, I talk with retirement planner, Greg Kurinec, CFP®, MRFC® about strategies to get the most from your Social Security benefits so you can live a fulfilling retirement.

Greg, explains the decision-making factors for taking Social Security early or delaying it, emphasizing the need to consider health, life expectancy, and employment status.

We also cover:

• Utilizing pre-tax accounts to bridge the gap before claiming Social Security at age 70.

• Conversion of pre-tax accounts to Roth accounts.

• Potential reforms to preserve Social Security.

Links:

Contact Gregory J. Kurinec, CFP®, MRFC® - www.pennantplanning.com/

Time Stamps

00:15 Introduction to Social Security

00:31 Guest Introduction: Greg Kurinec

01:15 The Importance of Unbiased Financial Advice

02:41 Conflicting Information on Social Security

04:23 Understanding Social Security Statements

08:51 Spousal and Divorced Benefits

10:54 Early Retirement Considerations

14:14 Full Retirement Age and Beyond

15:06 Tax Implications and Planning Strategies

23:27 Maximizing Benefits for Married Couples

26:28 Final Thoughts and Conclusion

• Transcript

  Welcome to Me Financial Podcast

  Welcome to Me Financial, the podcast designed to inspire your financial life. Hello everyone. And welcome to the podcast. I am Michelle Moses, your host.

  
  Introduction to Social Security

  And today we are going to be talking about everyone's favorite topic, social security. Um, we are going to be talking about whether you should take it early or late or delayed.

  Um, and what are the benefits of doing some of all those options.

  
  Guest Introduction: Greg Kurenik

  And today to talk about that, I have Greg Kurenik and he is also a certified financial. A planner and he likes to help, uh, provide unbiased retirement planning information and spread financial literacy among the community, and it has been something he's been working on his entire career.

  Thank you for joining us. Michelle. I appreciate you having me today. Yeah, I, and this is a topic that I've been wanting to talk about, and I'm glad to have another advisor on, uh, because we were talking before the [00:01:00] show that I, you know, don't often get to talk to other advisors that are kind of at the same level.

  So it's, it's, it's, It's nice to, you know, kind of throw some ideas back and forth. So, um, Yeah, it's nice to know we're not on an island all by ourselves. Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly how I feel.

  
  The Importance of Unbiased Financial Advice

  Uh, and I want to kind of tout Greg also because his bio, if you were to go to his website, which will obviously be in the show notes, but, um, He is really all about the same things I am providing unbiased honest advice and that there's so many people out there just pushing product that we are kind of on a mission to change.

  I don't, I don't even know if it's to change the world, but to change the financial services industry to not be so pushing product and making commissions to where you're actually getting good advice and sound advice from somebody that knows what they're talking about and just has their best interest at heart.

  And yeah, yeah, right. And, uh, and it gets so frustrating sometimes [00:02:00] when you like hear people or, you know, I don't know, I'm sure you've had the same frustrations that I've had. Yeah, for sure. You know, um, like you said, we're not out to push any particular product to almost the way that I think of it. The product that I'm trying to sell is a successful retirement, you know, it's, it's a whole, it's not anyone.

  insurance policy or annuity or stock or bond or anything like that. It's looking at it as a whole and bringing it all together, which is why all these different areas need to be focused on, whether it be Social Security, Medicare, things that don't have to do with rates of return or commissions or fees.

  That need to be addressed for everybody. Right, right. Yeah.

  
  Conflicting Information on Social Security

  And I think social security is a huge question because you'll read one article where it'll say to take it early, and then you could, you know, work and maybe pocket the difference or, uh, and then other people say, well, you should delay it, and then it'll go up more.

  And that, you know, and then you're obviously working longer. So I'm excited to talk about this because [00:03:00] people get such conflicting information, right? I mean, it's like you could read an article a day. Not only is the media out there perpetuating so many different strategies, which is good because it is, there is no one size fits all for anybody.

  It's important to know that you have options, but you know, your brother in law, your mother's brothers, cousins, best friends, uncle is going to tell you that you should absolutely take it this way. And there's all sorts of different information out there. So making sure that you have clear, concise. When it comes to your own personal situation and your filing strategy and so important, Yeah.

  And there is a just kind of like a tangent, but there was like a social media posterno, it was like an email and it was like, he signed up and get a new retirement strategy in your inbox every week. And I was like, man, that sounds so God. super freaking stressful. Like there is no way I would want a new retirement strategy to try to have to learn every single week.

  And that was for just like a [00:04:00] normal person. Like as me, even I'm like, I don't know. That sounds super confusing and that I would know, not know what direction to go in. Be two different retirement strategies in a year. That's a lot to take, put our arms around. Yeah. Yeah. And this was every week, a new retirement strategy every week.

  I'm like, I don't, I don't even know where you guys are getting your stuff, but. Not for me. Anyway. Okay. So security.

  
  Understanding Social Security Statements

  So let's come back around to social security and let's just talk about, I mean, everybody knows what social security is, right? I mean, there, there's no surprises there because we have it all taken out of our checks and so, right?

  Yeah. And so, um, what are, so we all know what it is. And I think the only changes that have really come into place is that they're not mailing statements anymore. They only mail them if you're over the age of 60. Correct. Okay. Correct. Okay. And, uh, most people just want to know. And then I, I think that's when people really start to look at it.

  I would actually say, what age do you think? I would actually say like 55 [00:05:00] people start to get like super serious about retiring. Yeah, you know, that's it. I see the, the people that I'm running into between 50 and 55, especially if they're talking to me, I'm telling them to go get it. And they don't even know how to get it or where to get it or anything like that.

  So it is still available, even though you're not getting it in your mailbox. It's available online. Just go to the social security website and you'll get your statement. It comes out in the month of your birthday each year. So that's when you get your new statement each year. But yeah, 50 to 55 because when it comes down to your retirement planning, social security is going to play a significant role into that.

  So you want to make sure that you have an accurate account for what your benefits could be at your retirement age, whether that's at your full retirement age, or you're going to work later or retire earlier, you know, so you have an understanding of, okay, what kind of role is social security going to play?

  Yeah. And I think that people, uh, don't realize when people are, and I would just say in general, to me, I mean, even people [00:06:00] that save, I mean, social security is a major part of their retirement income. Right. Yeah, for sure. You know, when social security was first signed into law back in 1935, you know, back then everybody was getting pensions.

  Okay. Now pensions are almost a thing of the past for the majority of people out there. So because of that, social security has taken the place as the pension and has become a larger portion of people's retirement planning. So they have their 401ks and IRAs and all those different things, but really social security is the one forming that base.

  Yeah. Yeah. And it's nice. To know that there's something there that will be there every single month. And then that the Medicare also, so a lot of people wait to retire because of Medicare too. They don't want to pay all the medical premiums. Um, so that, that's a huge thing too. You find that also. Yeah, absolutely.

  You know it, I'm glad that you're confident. And I'm confident that social security is going to be there because the people that I talk to are so afraid that it's going to go away, that it's going to run out of money. And again, that's, you [00:07:00] know, uh, a lie that's perpetuated by the media. So social security is never going to fully go away there.

  There are fail safes in place to help protect us, and that doesn't mean that we're not due for some reform. We haven't had major social security reform since 1983, so it's time to make some changes. And, um, from what I could see, The changes that will be made are pretty minimal where they're not going to impact us too greatly.

  So, um, I am confident that it's still going to be there when it comes to my retirement. Yeah. I think it's still going to be there and I, you know, the changes are going to be, you know, the retirement age might be later, which, you know, they move it out a year and that just saves billions of dollars for them.

  So, you know, these, these little tweaks, but no, I am not worried about it. I mean, could you imagine if social security, I mean, there would be mass anarchy. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, it would be, yeah, it would be political suicide. It is not something, I mean, every single person relies on it for the retirement or planning on the retirement.[00:08:00]

  And they might as well just say, nobody's going to retire if that was going to happen. And that, and that would be the case. And so that's why I am very confident that Our government, no matter, it doesn't matter what party you like or don't like, they will come together and put some sort of reform together to shore up that all these people that are in retirement and entering retirement will be safe.

  Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So we believe that it will still be around. So there we're, we're settling kind of that debate a little bit with our opinions. Uh, okay. So you can go on to the website and get your own sample. Statement And that is how we often will project out your retirement planning when we're doing retirement projections.

  Uh, and I think it is. And why don't we talk a little bit, this can get a little bit con convoluted, but people are often wondering, whose retirement can I claim?

  
  Spousal and Divorced Benefits

  So let's talk about this. And I think the key word here is that if you're married for more than 10 years, then there are options, right? [00:09:00] Do you want to expand on this a little bit?

  Yeah, if you are married, so we have a married couple, and you each have an earnings record, or maybe you don't have an earnings record, maybe that one of the spouses stayed at home and never worked at all. Yeah, You might be entitled, you should be entitled to file what's called a spousal benefit. So when you were dealing with a married couple and it comes to time to file for social security, you have two options.

  You can file under your own earnings record, or you can file under your spouse's earnings record and receive 50 percent of their benefit. Okay, so that is a way for a married couple to get to social security checks. Right, so basically, so let's Like the traditional has been, the husband has been earning more and making more.

  So the husband would take his social security and then the wife would get 50% of whatever his was. And they help you. Yeah. And they help you go through all of this. Like if you go into the office, they, they run through the [00:10:00] scenarios of no, yours is higher than 50% of his. Uh, and so there's not a lot of question.

  I think once you get there, it's more about the planning. Right. When you're, before you get there. Exactly. When the social security office will tell you whether you should claim spousal or not, but they're not going to tell give you strategies on when you should claim or who should claim first or things like that.

  That's where us as financial advisors have learned to, I don't want to say exploit the system, but work within the system to make sure that our clients get the best results that they can for their retirement. Right, exactly. And so I think another thing to bring up with just the This topic is that, uh, if you are married and you've been married 10 years and then you get divorced, this option is still there.

  So even if you're not married when you retire, but then if you get remarried, then that goes away. Am I correct in remembering that? That is correct. That is correct. Okay. And so, okay, so now let's keep going.

  
  Early Retirement Considerations

  So now you're getting to be 62, which would be kind of the [00:11:00] early retirement. And so what do you often say about taking it early?

  It depends, you know, there is no hard and fast rules. Now, if you were 62 and you were laid off from your job, or if you have medical issues, um, if you have poor family history, those are all options to really consider taking social security early. Okay. This is really, uh, a game that we're playing based on life expectancy.

  Okay. So the game we all like to play. Right. I was like, okay, we all are playing it regard. I know. I feel like we're playing that every day or with life insurance and all kinds of different insurance. And how long are you gonna live? Yeah. Anyway, go ahead. Well, how long do you plan to be around now? Now Michelle?

  I left my crystal ball in the other office. Exactly. I know. Or like I'm doing retirement projections. I'm like, okay, you're gonna live till you're 92. And some people are like, oh no, I'm not gonna live that long. You know, like, I dunno. Yeah, it's funny. When I work with clients, all the guys say, Oh, [00:12:00] I'm not even going to make it to 80.

  And all the women are like, Oh, I'm living until 95, 96. It's gonna be great. I go, Yeah, you just want that quiet 20 years after you've gone to enjoy your life. Yeah, it's true. Although some of the men are saying that they're they're living longer, it just depends on how long their parents lived, I guess. And so then they kind of have the belief after that.

  And that's the thing that that's the only true indication that we have is based on family history and our own personal health history. Yeah. Yeah. That's how we kind of try to gauge how long we're going to be around. So again, if you're short on money, short on health, Sort on life expectancy, then claiming early.

  Makes sense. Yeah. Now, if you are going to continue to work after age 62, filing early doesn't make a whole lot of sense if you're gonna make some substantial income, because then there's the offset that we have, meaning that, and we're reporting this in 2024. So if you make over, it's around $18,000 this [00:13:00] year.

  Um. then you'll start to have a reduction in your social security benefit. So that's something to take into account as well when it comes to filing early. Right. It doesn't benefit you to work and take early social security because then it'll be reduced anyway. And once you trigger it, and that's the thing about social security is once you trigger it, there's no going back.

  I mean, you have started the ball, you are going, it is, it's moving. You're not accumulating anymore. And so, um, that, you know, that, that's why it's important to discuss whether you're going to take it early or not. Um, yeah, you get a one, a one time 12 month do over. So if within 12 months, but within that 12 months, you have to pay back everything you took.

  Yeah. Yeah. So it's not really, I don't even consider that an option. Cause I know people aren't really going to do that, but, um, Uh, but yeah, I mean, I guess there are some options, uh, but yeah, once you start the ball rolling and that's why it's such a big deal and I feel like people kind of know it just kind of works out and I don't even know how to explain it, but you start [00:14:00] to plan for retirement and then you kind of get the balls rolling and you're moving things into the right order and then it just kind of unfolds.

  I don't, I don't even know how to describe it. Is it like that for you too? Yeah, it really is. You had mentioned it earlier that.

  
  Full Retirement Age and Beyond

  You know, being a retirement planner, I see people more or less delaying retirement till age 65 because of Medicare premium or you're able to enter Medicare. We don't have to deal with insurance premiums outside of that.

  So now at that point, you're really close to full retirement age on Social Security anyways. So your full retirement age is going to be somewhere between 66 and 67, depending on the year in which you're born. So most people can. Decide, all right, I can wait another year to get to my full retirement age.

  Yeah. All right. Once you get to your full retirement age, that opens up a whole window of options for you then, then if you want it to continue working after your age, 66 or 67th birthday, you can claim social security and not have that earnings test. that we [00:15:00] had previously. So that's available to you.

  Yeah. So once you reach full retirement age, guys, you don't have the earnings test.

  
  Tax Implications and Planning Strategies

  And, um, and when you, then it's, it's more of the, uh, if you earn too much, then it's becomes taxable, correct? It switches. Okay. Yeah. Then we're dealing with taxation issues, which is fine. You know, that means we're making money.

  Taxes aren't always a bad thing. I'm not afraid to pay taxes. I just want to pay my fair share. Not everybody else's fair share. Right? Yeah. I don't know. I kind of get my, I don't really like the social security is taxed. I mean, you already paid, you already paid into it. Like, really? You're going to tax it again, but you know, whatever.

  That's well, I'll go to Washington Have that discussion. Yeah. We'll, we'll march on that one. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, that's not something we're gonna solve right today, but, um, so yeah, so guys, if you start early, then you start to get a reduce in, um, early retirement. And you guys, you know, you see that on your social security statement.

  It'll say retirement or early retirement is 62, and then you've got all the different ages. And then down below that are, you know, you got survivor benefits and a death [00:16:00] benefit. Um, and if you have, um. Minor children that, uh, are, uh, disabled, that kind of thing. All those special needs, um, then you've got those benefits listed below, but your early retirement, if you take it early and you're still working, then your benefits are going to be reduced.

  And if you wait until full retirement age, then you don't have to worry about any of that. You can just take it if you want. But if you are going to continue working, then your retirement, your social security benefits might be taxed. Depending on how much you make, and that threshold's pretty low. It's like $35,000.

  Am I right about that? For, yeah, for a single filer. Mm-Hmm. and 44 for joint. Yeah. So yeah, that threshold is extremely low and that hasn't been adjusted. I've been talking about social security. For over a decade. They have not adjusted those numbers once. No. It used to be like 32, but I mean that's just not, yeah, it's not that much to make a big difference.

  Uh, and so those are the things that you're kind of considering when you're thinking about retire or when you're thinking about social [00:17:00] security guys. And I also think that when you get to retirement, what happens is, um. I don't know. People are like, okay, I'm going to work till 65. And then almost like something happens and they're like, well, if I just work until March, there'll be a bonus.

  And so then they'll work like another eight months. And so then they'll retire. And then it's only like, you know, four or five months until their full retirement age. And it's not just a big deal. You know what I mean? Like it all seems to work out that they can just carry their income for a few months while they're waiting for social security to kick in.

  Yeah. You know, it's one of those, as you get closer to it, it becomes. More normalized that becomes you start to realize the impact of it when you're 45, you know, 50 years old is, oh, give me that money as soon as I can. I'm going to rely on that. Well, no. Now, as I get to those ages, it's, Oh no, this money is substantial.

  Look how much it grew. Oh, my portfolio might be down. This money's still here and going up. I'm going to let that grow for a little bit longer. Right. Yeah. And you've been planning for it. So it's like you got these safety nets and so you're [00:18:00] not as. Yeah, you're just not like needing it as much because you have all the safety nets and I think if you're prepared for retirement, I mean, obviously we work with people that have money.

  Uh, and so we are kind of in this lane. We are not working with people that have no savings. And, you know, and I hate to say that I'm not, I'm not saying good or bad. This is just our world and that, that we just tend to work with savers. And so this is what they tend to do. Uh, and as you start to get closer to retirement, I think, you know, then we're changing the And then some of them I feel like a lot of people they're like, Oh, well, I got to offer a job to do like a consulting for a year.

  You know, do you get that too? Yeah. Yeah. All the time. It always ends up better than what people think it always does. It's almost like their intentions are out there and then it just ends up being okay. And there are so many people now that retire and they're not even touching their money until they're like 72 years old.

  Well, and here's where [00:19:00] I've seen a big shift as well. Um, because when we delay our social security benefits, we get those guaranteed growth credits that the government's giving us. So after our full retirement age, our social security benefit will grow by a guaranteed 8 percent per year. Okay. When we were going through the financial crisis and, you know, some of those lean years, There's no investments out there getting you 8 percent per year.

  Even now there's no guaranteed investments giving you 8 percent per year. So we've almost looked at social security, even as like a tax planning tool, where the majority, we already mentioned how pensions are kind of a thing in the past for a lot of us. Well, so the majority of our savings are in 401ks and IRAs.

  Those are all pre tax dollars. So if we want to retire at, let's say 65 for Medicare. Not claim social security until later, maybe age 70 for those five years. We call it the gap years. You living off of those pre [00:20:00] tax dollars first and paying less tax on them because we have no other sources of income and letting that social security compound at 8 percent per year.

  Yeah. Then at age 70, you turn your social security on full blast. Those pre tax accounts have now been drawn down, maybe converted to Roth, or you've used them to live off of, whatever the case may be. And now we've done a little bit of tax management. Right. And can you explain to them what you mean by pre tax accounts?

  So our 401ks and IRAs, those are all accounts that we've contributed to, our employers have matched on, but we've never paid a dime of tax. So if I'm going to start making withdrawals from there, that means that I have to start paying income tax on that. So when people come to me and they might have a million dollar 401k, I say you don't really have a million dollars, you have about 700, 000 in there because a third of that's going to the government.

  Okay. So if we can manage that, if we can use some of those assets before we have other sources of income to get those [00:21:00] dollars out in the lower tax brackets, the 10, the 12, the 22 percent tax brackets, then that's going to create a favorable outcome for us in the long run. Then if we were to just turn on social security immediately when we retired and then use those to supplement because when we turn age 73 is when the government forces us to take money out of those pre tax accounts.

  So it's, it's really beneficial. Yeah. This is really beneficial to have some planning to get some money out of your IRAs. And not only that, are you going to benefit from getting some money and paying a lower tax bracket of getting them out of your IRAs and 401ks. But with the new, since the, secure act, uh, you are not allowed to really roll over your IRAs in the same way.

  And so it becomes much, there's much more urgency for people to get money out of their IRAs and 401ks before they die. Because your beneficiaries have to get that money out in 10 years and it's not rolled over over their entire lifetime anymore. So I could [00:22:00] see that that would also play in to that kind of estate planning too.

  So look at look at all the different things we just named there from a planning perspective. We're talking about income planning with Social Security. tax planning with RMDs and IRA withdrawals, estate planning with getting it to inherited IRAs. Look at all those different areas we covered just by a social security strategy.

  You know, so it shows how one, one decision impacts all these other areas as well. Yeah, it really does. And then even if you're, so let's say you're 65 and you, you retire and you get your Medicare. And then you are taking the money out of a 401k or your IRAs and just to get it out and to delay your social security so that you could make that 8%.

  And you don't even need all of that money because some people they don't even need all that money. And you say, okay, well, then let's do it. Take that money and we could put it in a Roth or we could put it, you know, you could put it in a lot of different things. Uh, a lot of them are where people are worried about long term care.

  So sometimes [00:23:00] we'll do some sort of, uh, I don't do long term care policies, but some sort of insurance policy that would like save it for long term care. Uh, do you, yeah, yeah. So there's all kinds of different strategies you could do like that. Are there other strategies that you've seen people employ with their social security rather than just like turning it on?

  You know, there's a lot of different ways to approach it, especially again when we're dealing with married couples.

  
  Maximizing Benefits for Married Couples

  If there's an earnings difference or if they are similarly earned, you know, sometimes I'll see one spouse turn it on and let the other spouse delay because That's another thing. When we're dealing with a married couple, we talked about how spouses can claim together.

  If there's a lower earning spouse, they get 50 percent of the higher earning spouse. But what we haven't talked about is what happens when one spouse dies. Okay. When one spouse dies, the surviving spouse only gets to keep one benefit. Now they get to keep the higher of the two, but in theory, they're [00:24:00] still losing between 30 and 50 percent of their social security income at death.

  So that's why it's important to me, especially when we have an earning discrepancy, when the social security benefits are so high. Different that we try to maximize the highest one so that at the death of the first spouse, at least the surviving spouse is left with the largest possible benefit they could have.

  Okay, so basically you, you would take, you would take the one of the highest earners, so security, and you'd start out, and then the lowest earner, you would just let that accumulate. And I guess we're mostly, we're probably, let's talk about man and woman, because it's probably the guy still, because right now the people that are retiring, that was still the case.

  Right? So the, take the guy's social security and let the women's grow because you're going to be growing it out that eight, well, maybe not 8 percent yet, but at 65 to 67, it'll grow full retirement age. And then if he passes, then you start [00:25:00] to take, you could take the other one and it's been growing.

  Correct. Okay. We always want to let the largest one grow and get that 8 percent rate of return if we can. Oh, you're saying have the largest one grow. Yeah, let the largest one grow. Okay. So that at the death, at least they get the, even though he passed away, they still leave the largest possible benefit.

  Right. Okay. All right. So I explained that incorrectly. I was, it should be opposite. Yes, we have to though. Okay. All right. So, okay. Uh, I like that one. I haven't, uh, heard that one in a long time. I appreciate you reminding me of that. Yeah. Um, I, and because mine, I haven't been honestly that complicated. I, I, mine are just never, it, it's always, they've already got a plan of what they wanna do.

  'cause I just think it's a natural part of what, you know, and people are already thinking about their retirement too. And I think that's what's great about planning is it's not like. I don't know. It's a team effort. You know what I mean? We're all coming to the table with ideas about what's going on.

  It's like a big brainstorming session. Exactly. They closed a lot of the, [00:26:00] the fun loopholes that advisors exploited. That was back in what, like 2013 or 14, something like that, where we could do file and suspend and restricted applications. That's all a thing of the past. Oh man, that made it so complicated.

  It's been pretty straightforward. Yeah. Yeah, it is. And then they, they help a lot. Like when you go in there and they're working with the people. Uh, about what their benefits are. I do think that the, they're genuinely trying to help people and maximize their retirement. So it is good. Yeah. For sure. Okay.

  
  Final Thoughts and Conclusion

  Well, I think we've covered some good topics and some good things. Are we missing anything you really wanted to talk about? No, no, I just think I, the one thing I want to stress is that I hope people don't think of Social Security as a smash and grab system. Let's get our checks as soon as we can and go from there.

  I think does, even though we're talking about how a lot of the strategies have been simplified, it still takes some thought process on when's the optimal time for you to claim Social Security that's going to fit your retirement plan the best. So I [00:27:00] don't want to, I don't like to speak in hyperbole or anything.

  But Social Security probably is one of the largest financial decisions that you will make in your lifetime. So it demands a little bit of time and effort into making that decision. Right. It does. I agree. And I mean, also the Medicare portion of it too, and deciding what coverage you want and how much of that is going to be taken up of your Social Security.

  I mean, yeah, there's a lot of little moving parts. And if you break them down, um, then I, you know, and you're again, planning ahead of time, it's not so overwhelming. Absolutely. You know, hopefully we don't have to do any crisis planning or anything like that, that this is something that you've thought about well before retirement and have your plan in place.

  Yeah, exactly. Cause then I feel like you just turn it on and people, the people I've worked with for a long time, they're like, that's it. I'm like, yeah, I mean, we've been, we've been putting this in place for the last five years. Like all we're going to do is turn this one thing on and they're like, okay, well that was kind of anticlimactic.

  Like, cause that's what they thought, you know, they were going to do all these [00:28:00] things and all this. And I'm like, no, we're just going to turn this one thing on and then you're good. And okay. All right. And yeah, they're, they're expecting a little bit more. Yeah, exactly. So that's what good planning can, can do.

  So, uh, well, thank you so much for being on. I really appreciate you, um, sharing your perspective and I am going to put, uh, all of your information, your website and your newsletter. You do do a twice a month newsletter. Is that correct? Okay. So I'm going to put, uh, Greg's information in the show notes. If you guys have any questions or anything like that, let me know.

  Uh, please leave a review and tell your friends about the show. I appreciate you guys listening and thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Have a good day.

  [00:29:00]

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